We will write the history of DET-4 and also our own history. The Det, like us, is a museum piece. And spouses, your contribution counted then and now, so we would be glad to read your thoughts.
Click here to write in the document.
I will post a copy of what you wrote on the link above here in the main part of the blog in case someone accidentally erases everything on the file above or the Rooskies practice EW. If you want to edit something you already wrote just copy it down, make the changes, and repost it to the file above, or email it t me.
If you can't write in the file you can email it to craighullinger@gmail.com and I will post it.
Semper Fi
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George, you were way ahead of us. Very nice article. Here is the link to his article.
http://det4.blogspot.com/2013/06/full-military-honors.html
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| My fellow Marines, | ||
My personal experience with the Marine Corps spanned 30 years from 1970 to 2000. I served with the 20th Rifle Company in Rockford, Illinois; Golf Company in Madison, Wisconsin; Weapons Company in Waukegan, Illinois; H&S 2/24 in Chicago, Illinois; and Headquarters Detachment 4 in Chicago, Illinois. My duties took me to; Camp Pendleton, 29 Palms, Camp Ripley, Germany, Norway, Indiantown Gap, Fort McCoy, New Orleans, Fort Campbell, Quantico, Hawaii, South Korea, Camp Atterbury, Camp Lejune, Little Creek, and Desert Storm.
This is an interesting endeavor indeed as the Det encountered many changes over the years and had some of the finest Marines as members. Many of us moved in and out of the Det as billets changed and changed again. This unit was an outstanding example of the "total force" concept born out of the lessons learned in World War II. I have added a link to a recruiting video produced in 1955. It may seem a bit corny in places but is truly a piece of Marine Corps history, "The Pride of Main Street". "THE PRIDE OF MAIN STREET" 1955 U.S. MARINE CORPS RECRUITING FILM ROCKFORD, ILLINOIS 42584
An interesting aside to this film is that this was Company C at the time and had been activated for Korea. It later became the 20th Rifle Company, a source to provide replacements and reserves for the FMF, a continuation of WWII practices. It is also where I originally enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1970. It is also where we fortunate to serve with Gunner Davey, an Navy veteran who joined this unit and served in Korea.
From my records (and recollections) the 15th Staff Group was redesignated as Headquarters Detachment 4 in the fall of 1979, most likely to take effect in the fiscal year of 1980. The unit in and of itself continued to be a breeding ground for future leaders. Marines were able to serve in these types of units until other billets opened such as Commanding officers, Staff officers and even Sergeants Major.
I joined this unit as of January 1, 1980 as a lowly Staff Sergeant. Colonel Nardiello was the OIC. Sergeant Major Montana was the senior enlisted. We spent the first couple of years writing contingency plans and attended ATD at 4th Marines Corps division headquarters in New Orleans.
The missions of this detachment (beyond grooming commanders) began as staff planning group, writing contingency plans, MCCRES evaluations, and ultimately war gaming until its demise in the late 90s.
There were notable guests of honors at the Marine Corps Scholarship Balls in Chicago. Always a Commandant or Assistant Commandant, Judge Abraham Lincoln Maravitz III, Mike Ditka, Joe Rosenthal, and actor Robert Conrad to name a few. Officers and enlisted were often key participants in coordinating this event.
I left Det 4 to join H&S Company to serve in the 3 shop at the request of Lt Col Pierce who had taken over command of 2Bn 2/24 in 1984. This is an example of how officers stayed active and ready to serve as billets opened up. Several officers from surrounding units transferred in and out over the years. There were Com officers, Artillery officers, Pilots, Infantry officers, Admin officers and more. The officer side of our group will know better than I who were commanding officers in and out of this and other commands.
I rejoined the Det in 1987 and participated in many MCCRES's. A significant event in these evaluations was changing the final report from a "report card" pass/fail to one of identifying weaknesses that a given unit needed to improve upon to be rated as "combat ready". The intent was to assist a command rather than damaging a commanding officer's career, a welcome change.
I don't have a concise record of who were the OICs during these years as the detachments were not considered independent units. While we did write Command Chronologies, I struggle to find any record of these documents.
Note: Currently all Marine Corps chronologies are not available on-line. The History Division will be adding chronologies as it becomes available in a digital ...
I stayed with the Det until November of 1990 when I transferred to H&S once again in preparation for Desert Storm.
I returned to Det 4 in the fall of 1991. We continued to conduct a few MCCRESs but the focus was more on wargaming at this time in the form of "Steel Thrust". We also participated in operation ULCHI Focus Lens in South Korea.
There are many stories that could be shared:
- An F4 plane crash at 29 Palms in 1971
- NATO exercises in Germany and Norway
- Marine Corps Scholarship balls
- Damaging storms at Lejune and a Steel Thrust game to the rescue
- Many outstanding officers who became battalion and squadron COs
- Long range artillery round off base in Kentucky...investigation
- Standing by during the Granada invasion
- Many, many trips around the world
- Those we lost way too soon...
It was an amazing ride and served with the best of the best. There are many more stories...but I leave that up to the rest of you. My most memorable tour of duty was as the "acting Sergeant Major" for a CAX. The Division Sergeant Major was sick and even though there were other Sergeants Major available, the Chief of Staff asked me to be the Sergeant Major for this CAX in 29 Palm. I will never forget the direction I received from the Commanding General for this CAX. He pointed to a tent and said, "Now there is your tent. Go out and start doing 'Sergeant Major stuff'."
My final transfer out of Det 4 came in the fall of 97 as the Det was being disbanded. I returned to H&S 2/24 as the S4 Chief.
The rest is history...
My memory of dates and places is a bit faded and skewed by comments on my "Chronological Record" pages of my SRB such as "*denotes late entry" and "retyped due to numerous errors".
So much for being "fact based".
Thank you all and Semper Fidelis
Clarence Harper
Master Gunnery Sergeant United States Marines Corp Retired
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Master Gunnery Sergeant Harper, thank you for outstanding overview of both your Marine career and former history of both the Staff Group and HQ DET-4. I did not serve much time in DET-4 but do remember the great group of Marines both enlisted and officers. The work they did in supporting both the Regular and Reserve establishment was very valuable although I doubt many remember those efforts.
I am concerned with the new Marine Corp strategy and reorganization where that leaves the USMCR. The Corps cannot deploy a MEF without major Reserve augments. We proved that in Korea, the Gulf War and Iraq and now as an operational Reserve vice Strategic. My very best memories of being a Marine was serving in 2/24 from 1979 to 1987.
We were truly a band of brothers who accomplished all missions standing ready to mount out. I did many things before and after serving in the Marines but 2/24 will always be “the Battalion” and my home. Thanks again and Semper Fi. Happy Holidays. Pass this on if you like.
Robert L. Hudon, Jr.
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DET-4 ATD 1990 Prelude to War
DET-4 was ordered to Ft Campbell, KY to MCCRES 3/25 from Cleveland, OH in July 1990. I was a newly frocked O-6 OIC having requested MGEN Waters do this so I would not be “one stripe short” when confronting the CO 25th MAR, one notorious ACDU ass of an officer COL Billy Steed (RIP). Turned out Steed was actually UA having detached himself from 25th MAR/4th MarDiv and maneuvering to join I MEF G-3 with Gen Walt Boomer.
I arrived aboard FT Campbell Saturday evening and checked into our assigned barracks. At 0230 on Sunday the OOD awoke me in my quarters to ask if I was the Senior Marine aboard? I was. He said “that Range Control Officer needed to see me ASAP” as there was a “training accident”. Upon arrival at Range Control I was informed that Hotel BTRY 14th MAR had fired an artillery round out of the Impact Area. Subsequent detail and a map review showed the round was approx 6 km out of the impact area and OFF THE BASE!!
The local Fire Dept was contacted and was proceeding to the scene. I contacted 14th Mar CO at home and 4th MARDIV Duty Officer in NOLA. DET-4 was instructed to initiate an investigation and LTCOL Dick Johnson took the lead.
On Monday at 0900 I was scheduled to make a Courtesy Call on the COS of the 101st AIrborne whose home Base is Ft Campbell. It was quite cordial plenty of Bill (his name) and Will back and forth. The Chief was fully up to speed on the “training accident” and concluded our meeting by sharing that the last unit to put rounds off the Base was also a Marine unit!!
There was a great deal of activity on the base with near constant Blackhawk flight ops at night and an above normal training pace even for the Army. The conference room space the DET was assigned had walls adorned with maps of Saudia Arabia and Kuwait. We were at that time unaware that Saddam had started movement toward the Kuwait border and that the 101st had received a FRAGO to prepare for movement.
The rest of the ATD was routine and LTCOL Craig Wood (RIP) brought to my attention the leadership of an outstanding 1st LT Burke Whitman 2/25 as an aggressor PLT CMDR. This officer recently retired as MGEN Burke Whitman USMCR.
The arty investigation concluded under LTCOL Dick Johnson’s leadership but not without adding further to Marine lore. Turns out the round fired out of safe was a WP round. The local FD unfamiliar with fighting chemical fires attempted to dose it with water. This caused them to burn off the front side and tire of one their vehicles.
At the conclusion of the ATD I believe another item of DET-4 lore may have been created as a high speed run was made with Maj Steve Folan to Midway Airport. (It remains unknown whether this constitutes a still standing Land Speed Record via I-24/I-57 to Midway from Ft. Campbell).
The 3Q90 was spent in near constant communication with one of my Basic School classmates LTCOL Jimmy Glenn who was my POC at the SIA (Station of Initial Assignment). The objective here was to have DET-4 mobilized as an entire unit rather than as IMAs. The Marine Reserve which was being partially mobilized as a Division sized augmentation entity was standing up at MCB 29 Palms.
On Monday at 0900 I was scheduled to make a Courtesy Call on the COS of the 101st AIrborne whose home Base is Ft Campbell. It was quite cordial plenty of Bill (his name) and Will back and forth. The Chief was fully up to speed on the “training accident” and concluded our meeting by sharing that the last unit to put rounds off the Base was also a Marine unit!!
There was a great deal of activity on the base with near constant Blackhawk flight ops at night and an above normal training pace even for the Army. The conference room space the DET was assigned had walls adorned with maps of Saudia Arabia and Kuwait. We were at that time unaware that Saddam had started movement toward the Kuwait border and that the 101st had received a FRAGO to prepare for movement.
The rest of the ATD was routine and LTCOL Craig Wood (RIP) brought to my attention the leadership of an outstanding 1st LT Burke Whitman 2/25 as an aggressor PLT CMDR. This officer recently retired as MGEN Burke Whitman USMCR.
The arty investigation concluded under LTCOL Dick Johnson’s leadership but not without adding further to Marine lore. Turns out the round fired out of safe was a WP round. The local FD unfamiliar with fighting chemical fires attempted to dose it with water. This caused them to burn off the front side and tire of one their vehicles.
At the conclusion of the ATD I believe another item of DET-4 lore may have been created as a high speed run was made with Maj Steve Folan to Midway Airport. (It remains unknown whether this constitutes a still standing Land Speed Record via I-24/I-57 to Midway from Ft. Campbell).
The 3Q90 was spent in near constant communication with one of my Basic School classmates LTCOL Jimmy Glenn who was my POC at the SIA (Station of Initial Assignment). The objective here was to have DET-4 mobilized as an entire unit rather than as IMAs. The Marine Reserve which was being partially mobilized as a Division sized augmentation entity was standing up at MCB 29 Palms.
As the DET filled Line Numbers in the 4th MARDIV’s FSCC my objective was to keep us all together to the greatest extent possible upon mobilization. Having Col Glenn on the ground running interference for us (his words “the Chicago Mafia”) was most helpful. Unit Mobilization Orders were issued in September on a Friday and were subsequently cancelled the following Monday.
Several of our Enlisted members volunteered for ACDU and were called up. LTCOL Larry Woods - remember Camp Rilea ,OR…. (“put that ATD per diem to work”) was able to end his USMCR career with one final 2 week ATD just prior to his retirement date thanks to Col Jimmy Glenn’s help.
Will Holahan
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Drew can add some clarity on dates of the Officers in Charge of the Det. ...as I turned over 1/24 in Detroit to Drew when I was formally promoted (not frocked) to O-6. ...then assumed OIC DET-4 from Doug Barney. 1/24 was mobilized with Drew as CO and they deployed to Okinawa as UDP. Upon 1/24's return and whenever Drew relinquished 1/24 to Bob Raclaw...I relinquished OIC DET-4 to Drew and became COS 2d MEB under CG BG Larry Taylor.
( I'm sure this counts as a prime example of "programed succession" alluded to in Greg McLaughlin's blog note.)!!
I would also note that of the 17 LtCOLs I had in DET-4......10 were selected for command of BNs or SQRNs. That has to be some kind of record for a USMCR unit? and speaks to the professional depth the Chicago Marine community produced.
S/F
Will Holahan
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I tried going directly to the website to write this, but kept getting blocked out, (Rooskies) can you add this to the blog - thanks.
Will Holahan and Jim Bailey memos jogged my memory and caused this response:
I started in Chicago 1975 "Lucky Gregory" (Larry Anderson will remember water cans). The "Chicago Mafia" had two Generals back then Jack Frisbee (Ground) and Bus Bishop (Air). Dean Singalis was a Colonel with Staff Group forerunner of Det -4, Larry Magilligan and Mitch Waters were LtCols, Anderson, Holohan, Davis and I were Captains, Craig Wood and Bob Raclaw Lieutenants, Phil Malarski and Joe Stachula were Gunnys, Alderman and Rousell SSgts, and Jose Santiago a Corporal.
After ATD in Hattiesburg, Magilligan passed Command of 2/24 to Waters and the "first" migration began not from Glenview, but rather the Arty battery in Joliet - enter Majors Doug Barney and Byron Hill, followed by Scott Swain, "Bold Guard" really started the "reputation of succession" of the Chicago Mafia greatly aided by our Brigade CG, BrigGen Al Gray - he loved his ghetto Marines and spoke often of us.
LtCol Waters passed the baton to LtCol Mark Lipscome, and after a one year tenure came LtCol George Braun followed by LtCol Byron Hill, the migration/integration of infantry/artillery/air officers was off and running, and obviously continued through Det-4, and the migration/integration from Glenview was off and running. Initially, the 2/24 staff moved from the Bn to USMC Advisor Seabees at Great Lakes, but once Det-4 established under Col Mitch Waters, the succession began. (Bn XO to Det-4, Woods,Hill, Anderson, Holohan, McLaughlin) (Bn S-3 to Det-4 Barney, Hill, McLaughlin, Davis, Raclaw) and the AOs and FSCs as well (Swain, Vida, Wardlow, Hudon) and my memory is running out.
I joined the Det in 1985 after ten years (multiple Commands/ billets) in 2/24 along with Drew Davis - Col Waters passed to Col Magilligan who passed to Col Barney during my time - Steel Thrust, Arty MCCRES, and Reserve MAGTF Higher HQs were our missions in Houston, Alemeda, Quantico, 29 Palms, Ft Carson, Camp McCoy, and yes Hawaii.
I left the Det in 1989 to join 2dMeb (Asst G-3) under BrigGen Waters, but after 3 drills, my civilian occupation/overseas assignment ended my USMCR career. It has been an honor and privilege to have served with all those named/unnamed above, you will be in my final thoughts.
S/F
Mac
Greg McLaughlin
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The Det's precursor units were two (2) Staff Groups… the numerical designators escape me presently. These units were a source of Command Selected officers for 2/24 and the various aviation and Comm units resident at Glenview NAS.
The "rotation/migration" of officers between 4th MARDIV & 4th MAW and these Staff Groups no doubt led to the perception of a Chicago USMCR Mafia operating with programmed succession. We would have to look to Chicago members to sketch out our pre DET history. Many of those Staff Group members are no longer with us.
Those of us not from Chicago (me) often did significant amounts of unpaid drills as a loyalty test in order to secure admittance to the Det.
As such my knowledge of the DET-4 OIC lineage is limited to my own experience as a former OIC following Doug Barney and succeeded by Drew Davis.
Will Holahan
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Al Jennings is an excellent source of the information Will refers to...Al served in all the predecessor units.
Byron Hill
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Alvin Jennings
Early Det 4 history...
Greetings and an early Merry Christmas wish from one who was never officially a member of Det 4.
I was however, a member of Det 4’s predecessor unit, the “15th Staff Group.” We drilled at Foster Ave. Our CO was then Colonel Dean Sangalis, who was followed by the late Colonel Jerry Wolf (Wulf)? I was a major and the S-4 (and not a terribly enthusiastic S-4).
A few years later when I retired in 1990, I was the CO of 4fh Mar Div, HQ Det. 5 in St Louis. Twas a mirror image of Det.4.
Semper Fidelis.
Al Jennings
I was one of the first three officers in Det 4. Larry Magilligan, myself and the General. I don't remember the name of the General. We were part of an MTU prior to the formation of Det 4. My records indicate that I was joined to DET 4 on 26 August 1983. I don't remember the sequence of the officers that joined after that. Larry might remember. It was 37 years ago.
Jim Bailey
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Some DET 4 History
Lynn Wardlow
After coming off 4 years of active duty I went back to school, got my mathematics degree, and started teaching in MN. I joined an MTU and later was encouraged by OIC Col Burke to apply for SMCR duty with Det 4 in Chicago as they were seeking 0800 officers. I did and Col Weinlieder (sp?), the OIC then, called me and we set up an interview. What is amusing is I had just had a vasectomy on Friday but though still quite sore I agreed to meet the Col in Tomah, WI, on Saturday. He was shocked and a little embarrassed when he asked me why I was walking so timidly and I told him about the vasectomy. For me to drive 4 hours or so for this interview while in pain must have impressed him. I was hired and began drilling the next month. This was in the fall of 1982 or 1983, not exactly sure of the time frame.
Colonel Waters was our next OIC and then things got serious. We learned this new war game called Steelthrust and the training of Reserve Battalion command staffs began. Soon whenever a Battalion was slated for a CAX they would invite Det 4 to come do an exercise for them. I think we usually had 28 controllers surrounding a large map board, we gave them an order and the fun began. As far as the Bn staff knew it could have been a real exercise in the field because all of the com lines were active and radio traffic came across just as it does in actual combat.
I remember Col Waters had one of our drills in Washington D.C. where we were informing the Marines about Steelthrust and how it could be an aid to Bn staffs. My memory is foggy here but we may have been advertising our expertise at MCCRES as well at that same meeting as we had moved into that arena.
Speaking of MCCRES, we did one for a bn at Camp Ripley, MN. There was a restaurant/bar just outside the base where we ate (and had a few beers). There was an Army officer and an Army medic there having a beer at the bar. We got along well with the officer but the medic, a Vietnam vet starting bad mouthing Marines and relating how he had seen some of them die in a very derisive manner. Col Waters was sitting there and took offense to that and this idiot said, "you are a Col? You look more like a Gunny to me." I was right next to the Col and was already upset with his comments but calling our Col a gunny was the last straw. I stood up and was ready to punch him but the Army officer stepped in and escorted the drunk medic out.
This guy had pissed all of us off and we decided if we saw him again we would do something. I believe we brought a rope along the next night (MCCRES hadn't started yet) and were prepared to tie him up and just let him sit there. When he came in we gathered around him with the rope but he got scared and ran out. If anyone remembers this episode please correct me as my memory may not be accurate. Maybe we did not have a rope and just talked about it, but I do remember we chased him out of the bar.
I have several more stories but my memory is waning although I fondly remember the “Town Cars in attack”. We worked hard in the field but often came back for some “comfort time” in nice motels.
I was with the Det 13 years, longer than I was supposed to but I enjoyed it immensely. The Det even gave me a rocking chair when I retired. The friendships formed will last for ever.
Lynn Wardlow
I have several more stories but my memory is waning although I fondly remember the “Town Cars in attack”. We worked hard in the field but often came back for some “comfort time” in nice motels.
I was with the Det 13 years, longer than I was supposed to but I enjoyed it immensely. The Det even gave me a rocking chair when I retired. The friendships formed will last for ever.
Lynn Wardlow
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Click the links below to read:
Jim Homan's story
John Wilke's
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Craig Hullinger
I joined Det-4, 4th Marine Division in 1985 and left in 1987. I had been a member of MWCS-48 Glenview for 13 years and was a little nervous about going back to the Division after swinging with the Wing. But the Det was a great experience.
Serving in the Detachment was different than serving in a unit with junior troops. We were senior Marines - Mostly LtCol’s and senior NCO’s, commanded by a Colonel. And the Det was small - only about fifteen to twenty Marines, as I recall. We no longer had the responsibility for many young Marines. The camaraderie of the unit was great after you broke the ice.
I interviewed to join the Det with Col Mitch Waters and Col Larry Magilligan. Mitch told me that some of the Glenview Marines worked out. By the time I joined Larry was the OIC. Col Doug Barney was OIC when I left for duty with Headquarters Marine Corps.
Larry Wood regaled me about our use of Lincoln Town Cars and life of luxury on Drill Weekends. Pretty plush, I thought. So our first weekend we went to 29 Palms and drove our Town Cars and stayed up all night on a Steel Thrust Exercise working our heads off in a dusty quonset hut. I had not idea what was going on - a lot of crazy guys rolling dice and arguing over a big map.
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Craig Hullinger
I joined Det-4, 4th Marine Division in 1985 and left in 1987. I had been a member of MWCS-48 Glenview for 13 years and was a little nervous about going back to the Division after swinging with the Wing. But the Det was a great experience.
Serving in the Detachment was different than serving in a unit with junior troops. We were senior Marines - Mostly LtCol’s and senior NCO’s, commanded by a Colonel. And the Det was small - only about fifteen to twenty Marines, as I recall. We no longer had the responsibility for many young Marines. The camaraderie of the unit was great after you broke the ice.
I interviewed to join the Det with Col Mitch Waters and Col Larry Magilligan. Mitch told me that some of the Glenview Marines worked out. By the time I joined Larry was the OIC. Col Doug Barney was OIC when I left for duty with Headquarters Marine Corps.
Larry Wood regaled me about our use of Lincoln Town Cars and life of luxury on Drill Weekends. Pretty plush, I thought. So our first weekend we went to 29 Palms and drove our Town Cars and stayed up all night on a Steel Thrust Exercise working our heads off in a dusty quonset hut. I had not idea what was going on - a lot of crazy guys rolling dice and arguing over a big map.
But the second night was in a nice motel sitting around the pool. I have a vague memory of sitting in the pool and hot tub in shorts. I think I remember Jim Bailey did not have shorts and after we berated him for a while he stripped off to his underwear and jumped in. If that memory is wrong, Jim, you can edit it here. (Lynn Wardlow confirms, and says there are some images you can't get out of your mind.) Thank goodness he confirmed - it would really be awful if I was fantasizing about Jim in his skivies.
Another early exercise was at Fort McCoy, Wisconsin where we evaluated all the Reserve Artillery Battalions. Very interesting. I had not been around Arty much and I really got a kick out of them shouting “Jump Up” in the middle of the night, and moving their guns very quickly to a new site in a very short time.
I also remember following two Humvees in a Dodge Pickup truck blacked out, no lights. The two Humvees went down into a deep ravine and drove out - we followed and went nose down into the ravine, stuck. We were there for a while until the Humvees came back for us.
The Arty guys worked like crazy, with little or no sleep. By the end of the exercise many of them had 1,000 yard stares and could not focus. At one point they fired a round off the base - likely because of a fatigue error. In my brief at the end of the exercise I told them how impressed I was with their performance but that they needed to force themselves and their Marines to sleep to avoid fatigue errors. I also remember Doug Barney telling me how good my brief was. Thanks, Doug.
We went to Houston for a Steelthrust and also got to visit the Space Shuttle training facility with a tour led by a Marine Astronaut. We had an opportunity to fly the Space Shuttle Simulator. I also roomed with Dick Stotz, a great guy, who was beginning to suffer from the problems that would end his life. I remember later he flew out to San Diego to attend Larry Magilligan’s retirement ceremony at MCRD.
A high point was the exercise we ran in coastal Oregon. We had a beach house and in general had a very nice time. My wife came out to stay with me. It was terribly hot back in Chicago but very nice there. She stayed much longer in cool Oregon than initially planned.
We did an exercise in Quantico at the Amphibious Warfare Center. Training the active duty folks was always interesting. I remember Jim Homan taking the lead.
We did some nice exercises at Camp Pendleton and Alameda, California. Ivan Zimmer, Jim Homan, and I were on liberty at Pendleton. We waited for some time for the sentry to pay attention to us, but he ignored us, so I ran through the gate. The next day a Marine Gunnery Sgt came up to me and told me that the MP’s wanted to see me outside. I was pretty sure but not positive that Jim and Ivan had set this up but still was a bit nervous for a bit. No MP’s - Ivan and Jim got me a bit.
John Hill and Byron Hill were both members of the Det when I joined, and left shortly after I joined. John Hill later became the Reserve OIC for MarForLant. Doug Barney, George Braun and I also joined MarForLant. I had heard some colorful stories about Byron Hill from Doug, something to do with potted palms in California. I related those to John, transferring the stories to him. He kept telling me those stories were about Byron, not him. He never figured out I was kidding him.
I have a Chinese Communist military hat with the red star on the center. I took it off a Communist. Ok, OK, I took it off a Chinese Communist when I bought it from him in China. I would wear it in the exercises and talk a little Russian to liven things up. Greg McLaughlin liked to use my commie hat to use as OpFor at Steelthrust Exercises.
Great Marines who served with Det while I was there include:
Another early exercise was at Fort McCoy, Wisconsin where we evaluated all the Reserve Artillery Battalions. Very interesting. I had not been around Arty much and I really got a kick out of them shouting “Jump Up” in the middle of the night, and moving their guns very quickly to a new site in a very short time.
I also remember following two Humvees in a Dodge Pickup truck blacked out, no lights. The two Humvees went down into a deep ravine and drove out - we followed and went nose down into the ravine, stuck. We were there for a while until the Humvees came back for us.
The Arty guys worked like crazy, with little or no sleep. By the end of the exercise many of them had 1,000 yard stares and could not focus. At one point they fired a round off the base - likely because of a fatigue error. In my brief at the end of the exercise I told them how impressed I was with their performance but that they needed to force themselves and their Marines to sleep to avoid fatigue errors. I also remember Doug Barney telling me how good my brief was. Thanks, Doug.
We went to Houston for a Steelthrust and also got to visit the Space Shuttle training facility with a tour led by a Marine Astronaut. We had an opportunity to fly the Space Shuttle Simulator. I also roomed with Dick Stotz, a great guy, who was beginning to suffer from the problems that would end his life. I remember later he flew out to San Diego to attend Larry Magilligan’s retirement ceremony at MCRD.
A high point was the exercise we ran in coastal Oregon. We had a beach house and in general had a very nice time. My wife came out to stay with me. It was terribly hot back in Chicago but very nice there. She stayed much longer in cool Oregon than initially planned.
We did an exercise in Quantico at the Amphibious Warfare Center. Training the active duty folks was always interesting. I remember Jim Homan taking the lead.
We did some nice exercises at Camp Pendleton and Alameda, California. Ivan Zimmer, Jim Homan, and I were on liberty at Pendleton. We waited for some time for the sentry to pay attention to us, but he ignored us, so I ran through the gate. The next day a Marine Gunnery Sgt came up to me and told me that the MP’s wanted to see me outside. I was pretty sure but not positive that Jim and Ivan had set this up but still was a bit nervous for a bit. No MP’s - Ivan and Jim got me a bit.
John Hill and Byron Hill were both members of the Det when I joined, and left shortly after I joined. John Hill later became the Reserve OIC for MarForLant. Doug Barney, George Braun and I also joined MarForLant. I had heard some colorful stories about Byron Hill from Doug, something to do with potted palms in California. I related those to John, transferring the stories to him. He kept telling me those stories were about Byron, not him. He never figured out I was kidding him.
I have a Chinese Communist military hat with the red star on the center. I took it off a Communist. Ok, OK, I took it off a Chinese Communist when I bought it from him in China. I would wear it in the exercises and talk a little Russian to liven things up. Greg McLaughlin liked to use my commie hat to use as OpFor at Steelthrust Exercises.
Great Marines who served with Det while I was there include:
Larry Anderson,
Doug Barney,
Jim Bailey,
Eric Bennett,
George Braun,
Drew Davis,
Jim Dunn,
Steve Eddington,
Sgt Fox,
Steve Fuller,
Clarence Harper,
Byron Hill,
Will Holahan,
Jim Homan,
Robert Hudon,
Frank Johnson,
Larry Magilligan,
Larry Magilligan,
Greg McLaughlin,
Ken Morey,
Roger Reitmaier,
Terry Sebold,
John Sevold,
Lynn Wardlow,
John Warneke,
Mitch Waters,
John Wilkes,
Larry Woods,
Craig Wood,
Ronald Wozniak,
Ivan Zimmer.
I am sorry for the Marines I missed and/or any incorrect spellings. Memories fade and mine is going fast.
Steve Eddington, John Warneke, Clarence Harper, Jim Dunne, and Sgt Fox did a great job with our logistics. It was quite a lot of work to pack up and ship the Steelthrust game and reassemble it. Thanks, gentlemen.
The Det was on the westside of Chicago. The neighborhood was not bad but there were a few dicey folks nearby. Steve Fuller and I took a short walk in the nice little park close to the drill center. A young man was twirling his pistol. We said hello and kept on walking.
Wing to Det-4
During my time we had five Glenview Wing Wipers join the Det. Jim Homan, Ivan Zimmer, Ron Wozniak, Eric Bennet, and myself. Glenview was our home for a very long time so we were not certain how we would fit in. But it was fine.
I recruited Ron Wozniak and Eric Bennet from MWCS-48. They did very well. Woz started to work to get exercises in Hawaii, Thailand, and Korea, after I left. I missed those great trips, although the Stumps and Wisconsin were nice.
_______________________________________________
Steel Thrust
Steel Thrust was a very effective wargame designed to test military units. The battle simulation game had been professionally developed. Det-4 took on this mission and set up numerous simulations. The Det would travel to the site of the tested unit and set up the simulation. The unit being tested would set up the same way they would head into battle using the same tactical circuits they would use in a real battle. TA-312 phones were often used in place of tactical radios. For the tested units, the battle simulation seemed like a real war, with constant changes and the fog of war.
The game was played on a very large map board. The Marine Forces and Opposing Forces lined up on the Board for battle. The game functioned in real time. The outcome of each interaction was controlled by a roll of the dice. The weapon capabilities of both OpFor and Marine units were based on real data.
Information from the simulation was transmitted to the Marine unit headquarters being tested on the same tactical circuits they would use in real combat. For the tested unit it seemed like a real war.
The following information is excerpted from a Marine Gazette article published in 1981.
“STEEL THRUST and LANDING FORCE, for the MAU and MAB respectively, are also vehicles to provide dimension in training. Both of these battle simulations are planned for play in real time. As opposed to TACWAR, where the decisions and movement of the represented combat minute are allowed to consume as much time as is needed by the players, these real time games will hold the players to moving at the speed of the clock. This does not necessarily mean that 1 minute of play will represent 1 minute of combat; perhaps, 10 minutes of play would represent 10 minutes of combat. Only those decisions reached and orders transmitted during the allotted time would be allowed by the referee controlling play.
This real time simulation becomes very important when training for what is now called maneuver warfare. If a commander and staff are to tighten their observation-orientation decision-action cycle, the Boyd Theory, so that they can turn within their opponents cycle to disjoint his control and defeat him, they must obviously practice making observations and decisions at the pace of real world time. These games will also be an ideal way for commanders and staff to master the techniques of mission orders and expeditious communication.
The introduction of wargaming to the MAU/MAB staff level should be most beneficial in providing an element of human friction too often sacrificed in canned CPX scenarios that are orchestrated from start to finish. In wargaming, however restrictive the scenario, once contact is made between opposing forces, the personalities of the players and their ability to free play create that friction which can, even unintentionally, upset the best laid plans and test the flexibility and imagination of the Marines involved.
For those many Marines who have walked the ground through a canned “tactical” exercise wondering what their commanders were learning, wargaming may provide a respite. STEELTHRUST and LANDING FORCE may be best used in a closed mode to drive a CPX. The staffs exercised are separated from the game and communicate with the battle through the same nets and systems they would use in battle.
Used this way, a MAU staff would establish a CP in the field with subordinate maneuver and logistic CPs located in separate locations communicating with controllers manipulating the wargame at an independent site. Orders and reports would be passed by the same systems as battle would require. The “fog of war” would be reproduced by the isolation from the game board and the unknown intention of the opposing commander. The “fortunes of war” would be decided on the wargaming board and force response from the commanders. A computer could be integrated in results determination if necessary to maintain “real time” play.
The value of such training is obvious, particularly in tightening the decision-making cycle. Perhaps more important is the very real possibility of the Marine commander and staff being taught to recognize when an opponent is gaining the initiative and causing disruption in their command.
As with any system, there are limitations. TACWAR will not be all things to all Marines. Strict realists will complain, as with any simulation, that it cannot duplicate combat and has some gamesmanship factors. Experienced wargamers may argue for certain favorite gaming ideas used or excluded. In this regard, it is necessary to keep in mind two facts to place wargaming in perspective as it formally enters the Marine Corps. First, wargaming does not replace other, more traditional training, it expands and enhances it. Units must still go to the field and leaders must still practice moving and fighting their men on real terrain.
Secondly, wargaming is not a “game”; it is a simulation of an aspect of battle. The wargames designed for the Marine Corps do not have, as do their commercial counterparts, the primary purpose of entertainment. The games are designed to hone certain war-fighting decision processes and techniques. An aspect of a military wargame that appears initially more cumbersome than the commercial counterpart may well have been specifically designed in that manner to reinforce a tactical learning point that is unimportant in an entertainment game.”
Marine Corps Gazette Article 1981
https://mca-marines.org/gazette/the-tacwar-wargame/
________________
Det-4 History / Your Story / A Loved One's Story
Now would be a good time to write the history of Det-4 and put it on the blog. We know what we did while I was in the Det but most of us have little idea about what happened before and after our tours.
I have no idea when the Det started and ended. I know what they did in 85-87 for the two years I was in and I am familiar with the amazing Davis / Wozniak / Wood boondoggles to Hawaii, Thailand and Korea, but don't know much about the rest of the time. So if you want to start sending some emails with stories about the Det, both historical and humorous, send away.
Also, some of you other guys are not getting any younger. Now would be a good time to write your personal history. I will post them to https://det4.blogspot.com/ and on https://www.militarystories.us/
Military Stories We are collecting stories by and about military personnel. The stories will be posted on: www.militarystories.us
John Wilkes wrote a fascinating story and it is on the blog https://det4.blogspot.com/ and on www.militarystories.us
If you would like to have your story published email your story to Craig Hullinger craighullinger@gmail.com
Your story can be long or short. The story can cover an interesting event or your entire life. You can write about yourself or a friend or relative that you would like to honor.
Pictures are worth a thousand words. You can write the story for a relative, friend, or ancestor. You can add to your story. We look forward to publishing your story on the blog.
We can also post videos to our blog. If you want to make a video do so and email it to me and I will post it on the blog.
Take a look at the stories to see what people have already written. www.militarystories.us
Reply to all so everyone gets to see what you wrote. Or send it to
det-4@googlegroups.com
Semper Fi
___________________________________
I am sorry for the Marines I missed and/or any incorrect spellings. Memories fade and mine is going fast.
Steve Eddington, John Warneke, Clarence Harper, Jim Dunne, and Sgt Fox did a great job with our logistics. It was quite a lot of work to pack up and ship the Steelthrust game and reassemble it. Thanks, gentlemen.
The Det was on the westside of Chicago. The neighborhood was not bad but there were a few dicey folks nearby. Steve Fuller and I took a short walk in the nice little park close to the drill center. A young man was twirling his pistol. We said hello and kept on walking.
Wing to Det-4
During my time we had five Glenview Wing Wipers join the Det. Jim Homan, Ivan Zimmer, Ron Wozniak, Eric Bennet, and myself. Glenview was our home for a very long time so we were not certain how we would fit in. But it was fine.
I recruited Ron Wozniak and Eric Bennet from MWCS-48. They did very well. Woz started to work to get exercises in Hawaii, Thailand, and Korea, after I left. I missed those great trips, although the Stumps and Wisconsin were nice.
_______________________________________________
Steel Thrust
Steel Thrust was a very effective wargame designed to test military units. The battle simulation game had been professionally developed. Det-4 took on this mission and set up numerous simulations. The Det would travel to the site of the tested unit and set up the simulation. The unit being tested would set up the same way they would head into battle using the same tactical circuits they would use in a real battle. TA-312 phones were often used in place of tactical radios. For the tested units, the battle simulation seemed like a real war, with constant changes and the fog of war.
The game was played on a very large map board. The Marine Forces and Opposing Forces lined up on the Board for battle. The game functioned in real time. The outcome of each interaction was controlled by a roll of the dice. The weapon capabilities of both OpFor and Marine units were based on real data.
Information from the simulation was transmitted to the Marine unit headquarters being tested on the same tactical circuits they would use in real combat. For the tested unit it seemed like a real war.
The following information is excerpted from a Marine Gazette article published in 1981.
“STEEL THRUST and LANDING FORCE, for the MAU and MAB respectively, are also vehicles to provide dimension in training. Both of these battle simulations are planned for play in real time. As opposed to TACWAR, where the decisions and movement of the represented combat minute are allowed to consume as much time as is needed by the players, these real time games will hold the players to moving at the speed of the clock. This does not necessarily mean that 1 minute of play will represent 1 minute of combat; perhaps, 10 minutes of play would represent 10 minutes of combat. Only those decisions reached and orders transmitted during the allotted time would be allowed by the referee controlling play.
This real time simulation becomes very important when training for what is now called maneuver warfare. If a commander and staff are to tighten their observation-orientation decision-action cycle, the Boyd Theory, so that they can turn within their opponents cycle to disjoint his control and defeat him, they must obviously practice making observations and decisions at the pace of real world time. These games will also be an ideal way for commanders and staff to master the techniques of mission orders and expeditious communication.
The introduction of wargaming to the MAU/MAB staff level should be most beneficial in providing an element of human friction too often sacrificed in canned CPX scenarios that are orchestrated from start to finish. In wargaming, however restrictive the scenario, once contact is made between opposing forces, the personalities of the players and their ability to free play create that friction which can, even unintentionally, upset the best laid plans and test the flexibility and imagination of the Marines involved.
For those many Marines who have walked the ground through a canned “tactical” exercise wondering what their commanders were learning, wargaming may provide a respite. STEELTHRUST and LANDING FORCE may be best used in a closed mode to drive a CPX. The staffs exercised are separated from the game and communicate with the battle through the same nets and systems they would use in battle.
Used this way, a MAU staff would establish a CP in the field with subordinate maneuver and logistic CPs located in separate locations communicating with controllers manipulating the wargame at an independent site. Orders and reports would be passed by the same systems as battle would require. The “fog of war” would be reproduced by the isolation from the game board and the unknown intention of the opposing commander. The “fortunes of war” would be decided on the wargaming board and force response from the commanders. A computer could be integrated in results determination if necessary to maintain “real time” play.
The value of such training is obvious, particularly in tightening the decision-making cycle. Perhaps more important is the very real possibility of the Marine commander and staff being taught to recognize when an opponent is gaining the initiative and causing disruption in their command.
As with any system, there are limitations. TACWAR will not be all things to all Marines. Strict realists will complain, as with any simulation, that it cannot duplicate combat and has some gamesmanship factors. Experienced wargamers may argue for certain favorite gaming ideas used or excluded. In this regard, it is necessary to keep in mind two facts to place wargaming in perspective as it formally enters the Marine Corps. First, wargaming does not replace other, more traditional training, it expands and enhances it. Units must still go to the field and leaders must still practice moving and fighting their men on real terrain.
Secondly, wargaming is not a “game”; it is a simulation of an aspect of battle. The wargames designed for the Marine Corps do not have, as do their commercial counterparts, the primary purpose of entertainment. The games are designed to hone certain war-fighting decision processes and techniques. An aspect of a military wargame that appears initially more cumbersome than the commercial counterpart may well have been specifically designed in that manner to reinforce a tactical learning point that is unimportant in an entertainment game.”
Marine Corps Gazette Article 1981
https://mca-marines.org/gazette/the-tacwar-wargame/
________________
Det-4 History / Your Story / A Loved One's Story
Now would be a good time to write the history of Det-4 and put it on the blog. We know what we did while I was in the Det but most of us have little idea about what happened before and after our tours.
I have no idea when the Det started and ended. I know what they did in 85-87 for the two years I was in and I am familiar with the amazing Davis / Wozniak / Wood boondoggles to Hawaii, Thailand and Korea, but don't know much about the rest of the time. So if you want to start sending some emails with stories about the Det, both historical and humorous, send away.
Also, some of you other guys are not getting any younger. Now would be a good time to write your personal history. I will post them to https://det4.blogspot.com/ and on https://www.militarystories.us/
Military Stories We are collecting stories by and about military personnel. The stories will be posted on: www.militarystories.us
John Wilkes wrote a fascinating story and it is on the blog https://det4.blogspot.com/ and on www.militarystories.us
If you would like to have your story published email your story to Craig Hullinger craighullinger@gmail.com
Your story can be long or short. The story can cover an interesting event or your entire life. You can write about yourself or a friend or relative that you would like to honor.
Pictures are worth a thousand words. You can write the story for a relative, friend, or ancestor. You can add to your story. We look forward to publishing your story on the blog.
We can also post videos to our blog. If you want to make a video do so and email it to me and I will post it on the blog.
Take a look at the stories to see what people have already written. www.militarystories.us
Reply to all so everyone gets to see what you wrote. Or send it to
det-4@googlegroups.com
Semper Fi
___________________________________
History of Det-4, 4th Marine Division
Detachment 4 of the 4th Marine Division (Det-4) was a detachment of the Headquarters of 4th Marine Division. Rather than requiring Marines to travel throughout the US to Division Headquarters in New Orleans, the Division set up five detachments. Det-4 was co-located with 2/24, the Marine Infantry Battalion on Foster Avenue in Chicago. The Battalion is still there.
https://www.marforres.marines.mil/Major-Subordinate-Commands/4th-Marine-Division/23rd-Marine-Regiment/2nd-Battalion-24th-Marine-Regiment/
The Det was formed in 1983? and stood down in 1994? Its predecessor units were staff groups with one with the Infantry Battalion and the other at Glenview Naval Air Station. Its functions were merged back into 4th Marine Division Headquarters in New Orleans.
Officer in Charge / Rank When They Commanded / Years in Charge
Guesstimate?
Colonel Mitch Waters 1983-1985
Colonel Larry Magilligan 1985-1986
Colonel Douglas Barney 1986-1989
Colonel Will Holahan 1990-1992
Colonel Drew Davis 1992-1994
Colonel Craig Wood 1992-1994
DET-4 Marines - No Doubt missing many - send us the names to add -Members or Those Who Drilled With Us
Allermann Steve, Sgt.Major
Larry Anderson
Doug Barney
Jim Bailey, Warrant Officer
Eric Bennett
George Braun
Brooks, Joe, MGySgt
Robert Dart
Drew Davis
James Dunn, 1stSgt
Steve Eddington
Steve Fuller
Clarence Harper, MGySgt
Byron Hill
John Hill
William Holahan
Jim Homan
Robert Hudon
Craig Hullinger
Al Jennings (Det 5 but we claim him)
Dick Johnson
Frank Johnson
Alice Marie Joralemon
Larry Magilligan
Greg McLaughlin
Ken Morey, Warrant Officer 5
Bob Raclaw
Roger Reitmaier
Ric Reamer
Terry Sebold, Warrant Officer
John Sevold
Dick Stotz Rest in Peace
Scott Swaim Rest in Peace
https://www.daily-journal.com/news/local/web-exclusive-judge-swaim-62-dies-sunday-morning-of-heart-attack/article_347a730a-7101-5ccd-aa0c-08f7f9071795.html
Tom Vida
Rod Urban
Lynn Wardlow
john warneke, SgtMajor
Mitch Waters Rest in Peace https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/mitchell-waters-obituary?pid=3102347
John Wilkes
Abe Wilson, GySgt.
Larry Woods
Craig Wood Rest in Peace https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/pensacolanewsjournal/obituary.aspx?n=craig-wood&pid=165521147
Ronald Wozniak
Ivan Zimmer
After 1994 the Division Detachments were dissolved and their functions returned to 4th Marine Division Headquarters in New Orleans.
Dick Johnson
Frank Johnson
Alice Marie Joralemon
Larry Magilligan
Greg McLaughlin
Ken Morey, Warrant Officer 5
Bob Raclaw
Roger Reitmaier
Ric Reamer
Terry Sebold, Warrant Officer
John Sevold
Dick Stotz Rest in Peace
Scott Swaim Rest in Peace
https://www.daily-journal.com/news/local/web-exclusive-judge-swaim-62-dies-sunday-morning-of-heart-attack/article_347a730a-7101-5ccd-aa0c-08f7f9071795.html
Tom Vida
Rod Urban
Lynn Wardlow
john warneke, SgtMajor
Mitch Waters Rest in Peace https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/mitchell-waters-obituary?pid=3102347
John Wilkes
Abe Wilson, GySgt.
Larry Woods
Craig Wood Rest in Peace https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/pensacolanewsjournal/obituary.aspx?n=craig-wood&pid=165521147
Ronald Wozniak
Ivan Zimmer
After 1994 the Division Detachments were dissolved and their functions returned to 4th Marine Division Headquarters in New Orleans.
So...who remembers getting kicked out of a bar in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin?
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